Death Guard Testing - Volume 2

 

Got another round in with these guys - and got my Helbrutes painted.  Remember, the mantra for painting chaos is "...where did all this trim come from?!"

The List

The Ferrymen

Lord of Contagion - WL Trait "The Droning", Relic "Ferryman's Scythe"

Malignant Plaguecaster - Relic - Putrid Periapt, powers - Gift of Plagues, Miasma of Pestilence, Curse of the Leper

3x Helbrutes (Multi-melta, combi-bolter, fist)

2x3 Deathshroud Terminators

15 Pox Walkers

14 Pox Walkers

2x5 Plague Marines (Blight Launchers)

2x Bloat Drones (flesh mowers)

5 Chaos Spawn (Grandfather's blessing stratagem)

2x Plagueburst Crawler (entropy cannons)

The Plan

Deathshroud Terminators can start on the board, or drop in where needed.  If the opponet leaves a place to drop them near a backfield objective, I can scramble, I can save a CP for a charge re-roll, or force the opponent to commit something more important than a random backfield squad to hold that objective, since these guys should be able to mulch most objective squads solo.

The Helbrutes and Lord of Contagion are a solid anchor against a variety of targets, and I need the anti-vehicle firepower.

Spawn are hilariously annoying to kill.

I need Crawlers for actual shooting attacks.

My troops hold objectives and take up space.

The Periapt is in there because Gift of Plagues isn't super-relevant after a turn or two, and I'd like to try to use another psychic power after that.  Maybe Curse will do more damage than smite for that CP.

The Lord of Contagion is there because it'll hand out re-rolls and do respectable damage.  I sat around trying to figure out how to make a reasonably kill regular Lord, and they aren't a ton cheaper than this guy.  I go with a couple lightning claws, and...eh?  I take a balesword and a relic for a 2 damage one, which isn't bad.  Or I just go ahead and lean into damage and durability, and the ability to drop this guy elsewhere.  Plus, I wanted to try that silly "swing 15 times with cleave" relic.

Part of my plan was to use the Bloat Drones, Flash Outbreak, and The Droning to try to pin down a chunk of the other army.

The Opponent

I went up against Black Templar.  At a glance, the list included outriders, storm-shield-laden vanguard vets, biker chaplain, a trio of dreadnoughts around a master of the forge (2 venerable multi-melta guys, one plasma redemptor), a brick of hammer/shield terminators in front of Grimaldus and an Apothecary, and a trio of Crusader squads camping in the back.  See Also - half of us will be in your face now, and the other half, immediately thereafter.  Plus I guess some guys brought guns.

Game Summary

I went second - I deployed a touch too far forward, and this let his outriders and vanguard vets get into my lines on one side, annihilate a poxwalker screen (OH NOES!) and tie up a Plagueburst Crawler (...oh, no.).  I also screwed up deployment and lost a Bloat Drone turn 1 (...well, [REDACTED]).  I broke those guys free eventually with the help of the Spawn, and some Blightening and Trench Fighters on the Plague Marines.

Dreadnoughts traded blows in the middle; mine blew up first but had some truly garbage dice.  My Deathshroud secured his home objectives, so he swung into the midfield ones.

By the end, I lost by a few points.  I took Assassinate, Engage on All Fronts, and Scramblers to his Scramblers, All Fronts and Oath - Oath of the Moment racked up the points.  We both Scrambled, and we both did well on objectives and All Fronts, and I'd managed to nail three out of four characters.

Lessons Learned

Plagueburst Crawlers - These are now in the 'hard to leave at home' category.  We need the firepower.  Badly.  We just don't have guns.  T8, 3+/5++ makes them hard to kill - I lost one right at the end when a venerable dread finally got into 12" range and ran hot, and just  barely killed it.  Go ahead and pay 175 for the entropy cannons.

Bloat Drones - Expect these to get prioritized.  Anyone who's played against them more than once knows what they can do - they're fast, they mulch infantry, they heal, they can chew on vehicles, AND they can project Contagion auras.  Also, I have a hard time not starting with two.  I also don't really see the point of the sprays or the gun; the mower is just so much nastier and lets you heal in melee.

Plague Marines - even a five-man squad can spike damage for a few CP.  The Blightening is hilarious when you're engaged - the visual of three guys just dropping grenades at their feet is both great, and getting 18 auto-hitting S4 hits in melee is solid.  Trench Fighters is another winner.

Deployment In General - This army does not forgive deployment errors much at all.  My losses have in part been due to my screw-ups with deployment.

Plague Company Choice - As neat as The Droning sounds as a Bloatie + Flash Outbreak + Gift of Plagues combo, I'm not sure it's as cool in practice.  It goes off on turn two when everyone's moved up, and unless you're locking down slower troops, it's 'eh'.  If it's slow assaulty troops, they may be just fine punching the drone to death - a 2-3" move and an assault is probably still good enough.  

I feel like there are more reliable Contagion auras.  If I keep the Lord of Contagion, I'd tech into the relic Plague scythe that loses the -1 to hit, perhaps.

Lord HQs - I'm still trying to figure out why we'd bother with a regular lord, unless you kept it super-cheap at 85 points.  If so, you're purely getting a re-roll aura and a dude with a chainsword, which is hilariously lackluster.  Demon Princes are expensive, but bring out a ton of lethality and utility between psychic powers and the re-roll aura, and a nice heap of 3-damage attacks.  The Lord of Contagion is, for once, a decent middle-of-the-road choice.  He's about ~20 points more than a regular Lord with a weapon, he's got a neat upgrade, and he starts with a melee weapon that's solidly Death Guard.  Really, you only take a regular Lord or Terminator Lord if you want a combi-weapon.

Speculation, and Impacts of Wargear Changes

 So the other week, we got a look at a number of wargear changes.  These will change when Marines come out, and apparently it'll go to everyone that can carry them.

The precise impacts will vary depending on who actually has access to them, but I think I can smell some trends already.

The Short Version

I think we'll see Marines and Custodes feel the Storm Shield change in a big way, and it's probably not a bad thing.  The heavy bolter change is probably a reaction to multi-wound marines coming for CSM and non-Primaris marines, but I expect we'll see similar stuff play out for other armies WRT similar weapons.  The power sword change is a noteworthy tweak as well.  Past that, multi-meltas are probably playable now (if not really neat in certain configurations), and flamers are probably usable again.

Trends

I see some adjustments overall to durability - weapons have picked up some lethality, and Storm Shields are taking a hit to their invulnerable save.  Considering that the name of 9th is "put durable bodies on objectives" this is probably a decent step for the game.

Storm Shield Changes

You saw this with Indomitus - the invulnerable save goes to 4++, and the armor save gets a +1.  The impact here depends on who's holding it.  Dudes that just had power armor like this - they still get an invulnerable save, and that 3+ goes to a 2+.  The big change is for Terminators, Marine characters, and especially Custodes.  They all get more resistance to small arms fire (especially terminators and Custodes) but marine characters (well, captains) and Custodes already had a 4++.  The Indomitus-pattern lieutenant is more valuable now because he's got the shield (vs. no invlun), but Custodes now have to really think about whether they want to give up spear for the shield and sword.

I'd say this is the more far-ranging change.  TH/SS terminators are also a chunk less durable - the move from 2+/3++ to 1+/4++ means that small arms are less effective, but plasma, etc. is much more effective.

Weapon Changes

Power Swords, other power weapons

+1S matters more than you'd think.  Everyone with S3 (Eldar, IG, etc.) now wounds marine-equivalents on a 4+, and generally wounds vehicles on a 5+ instead of a 6+ (unless it's a T8 vehicle, but you should have another weapon for that, or be falling back).  S4 folks (marines, mostly) like it because S4 to S5 is beefy vs. T4 (wound on 3+), T5 (now you wound on 4+), and T8 (wound on a 5+).  Power axes and mauls are decent enough already, but now you have to ask if the +1S/AP-3 is better for wounding than +2S/-2AP from the axe.  If you're already S4, the sword's not bad.  The maul?  Eh, maybe just get a powerfist instead and get a damage buff.

Astartes Chainswords

-1AP all the time.  This is probably a change based on new cover rules.  Anyone who's got a volume of attacks already had a sword, and this is probably good for them.

Heavy Bolter

The only change here is it went to two damage.  It's now a heavy infantry killer, and also the threat to vehicles is increased.  

Let me say it now - there area  LOT of heavy bolters out there.  The IG have one on basically everyone vehicle.  Marines generally have one on a vehicle, or have the option for it.  Sisters seem to think they're participation trophies.  Bring enough of them and you'll chew up anything.  Chaos may not have them on everything, but Chaos still has access to them.

Multi-Melta

So these things might not be paperweights any more.  They got two buffs- they want from one to two shots, and if they're in half-range, they go from 1d6 damage to 1d6+2 damage, dropping the lower of 2 dice.  

The priority goes to anything that can close the gap with these.  Any vehicle with a multi-melta (heck, even old Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes) are a bit scarier to other vehicles.  You can also melt heavy infantry (well, slowly) in close.  Big winners here are any vehicles, any infantry that can get close, and anyone with accuracy buffs.  

I shudder to think that a handful of Iron Hand devastators can do falling out of a drop pod. (The short answer is "make a lord of war go away - a decent round of shooting sees them drop on average of four wounding multi-melta hits, so figure on 3 going through - which is 6+3d6 damage, taking the highest.  Average is probably around 15-18 damage.)

Short Version - you might start seeing these again on stuff that can close the gap and/or get accuracy buffs.

Flamers

All of the sudden they're 12" range.  This does two crucial things - first, it lets you deep-strike into flamer range, and second, it lets you fire overwatch.  This matters chiefly on units that bring a bunch of flamers.  Think Chaos Terminators, Crisis Suits, etc. - or just mobs of angry sisters or a Baal tank.

This is another one of those changes that is a bit more far-reaching - there are flamers EVERYWHERE in this game.

HOWEVER - these things matter mostly when it comes to overwatch and deep strike.  If you get to move, you'll get range anyway.

Short Version - Matters mostly when you're deep-striking or overwatching.

Hunter-Killer Missiles

They went up to S10, which matters mostly vs. T5 vehicles.  Matters mostly for those that brought lots of vehicles.  This is a quality of life thing more than anything else, since it's still a single-shot weapon.

Short Version - It's neat, I guess - it's +1 to wound vs. T5 targets.

Indomitus Set Impressions - Marine Side

 

At this point, I think everyone's at least aware of what's in the Indomitus boxed set.  I've had a chance to muck around with the marines a bit, and here's where I think they'll fit in.  Note this is in advance of a new codex, and we also have plenty of rumors and teasers of re-worked weapons profiles anyways.

Primaris Captain

Hey, look at that - the marines got a captain in their side.  There are a handful of other power-armor captains out there.  You get a heavy bolt pistol, a two-damage S5 power sword, and a relic shield that ends up granting you a 2+/4++ with a 4+ save vs. mortal wounds.

This guy's a niche piece, I feel - you can get more melee punch and speed off the good ol' hammer/shield/jump pack captain.  The powerfist/plasma pistol captain has better strength on weapons.  The vanilla sheet also gets you better ranged guns.  But, if you're going to wade in and thrash, the relic shield makes this guy worth considering.

Impression - consider the captain if you're skipping a 'smash' captain and going try to crush face in melee.

Primaris Lieutenant 

So, full confession - we all love those Primaris Lieutenant memes, but this guy actually has a pretty solid loadout.  This guy has a decent melee weapon (S5 2-damage power sword), an invulnerable save via storm shield, AND a pretty solid pistol.  I mean, come on - it's two shots at S5, two damage, and potential mortal wounds.

If you're going to take a primaris lieutenant (and unless you're going for a jump pack, might as well go Primaries) give this guy a look.

Impression - I honestly think I'm gonna end up using this guy a fair amount.  He's got a decent gun, and unlike all his other lieutenant buddies, he's got an invulnerable save.

Primaris Chaplain

Um, it's a chaplain, fellas.  We already have this.  It's a neat new model, but doesn't bring anything new.

Judiciar

Now, THIS is something new.  Sure, he's got melee punch.  Here's what we care about, though - "You, you there, within 6 inches - you go last."  If you are on foot (Maybe if you're Iron Hands and still trying for the whole mob of intercessors), the enemy basically HAS to hit you with as many elements as they can at the same time.  

Why?  Well, one of them goes last.  Another one swings, and then you can pop your 2CP interrupt stratagem.  If you're in a foot mob, or delivering a large group of guys via transports, then bring this guy.

Impression - it's build-specific, but definitely worth bringing if you think your mob of troopers is going to get charged.

Bladeguard Ancient

This is basically a riff on the existing Ancient, except that it provides Bladeguard-specific buffs.  Frankly, the "act again on a 4+" isn't super-reliable, and the utility depends a) on stuff dying, and b) stuff dying when its retaliation is meaningful.

For example - bladeguard dying and shooting a pistol is kinda 'meh.'  Hellblasters gettng punched to death and swinging a couple times in melee is 'meh.'

Impression - The codex may bring more, but consider this guy only if you're already bringing a couple bladeguard squads.

Bladeguard Veterans

First, first impression - um, what's up with 3W?  You're not Gravis guys.  That aside, at first glance these guys are in a wonky spot.  They're a small unit.  However, they're kind of sick in melee - everyone's packing a storm shield (even if it is the weird new-ish one) and a master-crafted power sword.  If you're bringing these, consider bringing a pair.

Realistically, these aren't for every army - if you try to walk them across the board, expect someone to thank you, and shoot them off the board if they can.  Build around delivering a couple squads into the enemy, though, and maybe you'll enjoy 'em.

Impression - Some chapters will love them, others won't necessarily care - but don't bolt them onto any build and assume they'll do great.

Assault Intercessors

Well, it's about time we got stabby intercessors.  I have to assume that the codex will let Sarge take melee options, especially since regular Intercessors already have them.  These guys will be fine for knocking enemies off existing objectives with fistfuls of dice (outside of anything else, you're cranking out 4 dice a dude on the charge at AP-1) if you can get there.  Note that if a volume of attacks is what you're after, you can always look at the auto bolt rifle on regular intercessors.  You lose the chainsword and fancy pistol, but go up to an assault 3 gun with 24" range.  You also get a stratagem to auto-hit all your shots at 12" range.  You don't always, y'know, WANT to be punching someone to death - and you still aren't a slouch in melee.

And that 'if' means that these may not be for everyone.  It's the same idea as Bladeguard vets - you're specialists.  Build around it, or don't take them.  And ask if you're ready to give up a rifle before going into melee.

Impression - I think a lot of armies will keep to existing intercessors, unless you've got great melee rules (cough cough, white scars, cough cough).  Otherwise, if you want volume of attacks, the assault bolt rifle's an option.

Outriders

I'll admit I'm partial to these guys.  They're fairly beefy in terms of toughness and wounds (T5, four wounds a guy), but note that bikes interact with cover differently than regular infantry.  You want to break LOS if possible on the approach.

And believe me, you want to make that approach.  If you want a chaff-clearer, it's these guys.  If you make the charge with a full unit, you're throwing out a hilarious 19 attacks with S4 AP-1 chainswords that hit on 3+.  It sounds like a lot, but it's reasonable to assume you're operating outside of support.  You'll be doing all this after firing a half-dozen bolt-rifles' worth of shots into the target too.  All told, that's a dozen AP-1 bolter shots onto your target first. 

In spite of the volume of attacks, remember - these guys are probably going to run screaming well out of range of any re-roll auras you have.

Based on the volume of attacks these guys get, I don't think we'll see Sarge getting melee options.  5 Thunder Hammer swings on the charge on turn one seems...unlikely.

These guys will be useful for putting pressure on objectives early, or going for stuff like 'Engage on All Fronts.'  

Admittedly, some armies will get more mileage out of these guys, but I think everyone can get something out of them.

Impression - I'm sold.  I won't run these all the time, but I can see running a couple units of these just to mess with someone else's plans.  

Eradicators

Let's be real - these are the guys everyone focused on when Indomitus dropped.  Honestly, it's understandable - the mere presence of these guys is meta-shifting.  You have to assume that a squad or two of these guys is going to walk off the side of the board and double-tap something important.

A 24" range is just about impossible to screen against, unless you're using terrain or stratagems.  You can probably keep them out of melta range, though.  Also god help you if you managed to leave a character exposed, someone's going to have to get a bucket and a mop.

Obviously their natural prey is enemy armor, monstrous creatures, and really, really beefy infantry.  You'll rarely ever skip out on Total Obliteration.

Why?  Unless you're starting these guys on the board (and hiding them well, just in case you don't go first) these guys may not be in re-roll range.

Expect one good round of shooting out of these guys.  They're reasonably durable at T5 with a 3+ save, so if the enemy can't shoot them to death, they may just assault them.  And Eradicators have....a pistol...for close combat.  So, y'know, try not to get into a fistfight.  And expect the enemy to try to charge them to tie them up if not kill them out-right.

Army-wise, any Marine army would be happy to run a couple units.  Note that anything that makes them more accurate is great - Salamanders come to mind, for reasons mentioned above.

Impression - Most marine players will try these guys a few times.  Not everyone will ultimately keep them.  Others will eventually adapt to them, one way or the other.

Overall Impressions

Eradicators drew all the attention first - and it's not undeserved.  That being said, I'm partial to the Outriders myself.  However, don't sleep on the Lieutenant - it's a solid loadout.  Finally, most of the rest of the box has at least a situational use.

9th Edition Speculation - Org Charts, Command Benefits, Point Costs, and Army Building

I guess it's a Titan org chart?

Well, we finally got a few more pieces of the puzzle - 9th is basically here, since we have point value leaks and the new force org charts.

The Short Version on Org Charts
1) You pay CP to take an org chart
2) If your warlord is in that org chart* you are going to get that for free
3) If you take more than one org chart, that org chart is going to cost CP
4) You start with 12 CP at 2,000 points
5) Dedicated transports require INFANTRY units instead of just units

*Unless it's superheavy.  Then you need a Knight codex with its rules.


Thinking about Org Charts in General
Pretty much every org chart (outside of the Superheavy detachment) requires an HQ choice, so I'm not super worried about comparing HQs with each other.

Note also that we don't see the 3x flyer detachment back, but most org charts allow 0-2 flyers.

THE BATTALION
Ah, the battalion - the workhorse of 8th.  The old 'giver of CP.'  The battalion's biggest impact was to make us look at taking tons of troops - so either you brought good troops, or you brought cheap troops.

Now, in 9th, if you're bringing a battalion, I suspect you'll bring 1 or none.  If you're going mono-faction, you can get up to 3 HQs, and you probably won't mind 3 troops choices - assuming, of course, that you have decent troops.  'Cheap filler battalions for CP' is no longer a thing, since you now have to pay CP for them.

Before taking a battalion, ask - "Is this my main/only faction?" and "Do I really like building around my troops?"  If you answered yes to both questions, consider taking it.

THE PATROL
Ah, the patrol.  One HQ, one troop, and access to 0-2 of most everything else.  I don't know that patrols got a lot of love in 8th.

I suspect this will change in 9th.

If you don't like your troops, you don't have to take a lot.  Save your points for other org chart slots where some of your more durable and/or lethal stuff is.  After all, those troops aren't giving you more CP now, either.

Additionally, if you want to 'splash' another faction in here but aren't planning on taking 3 of a given force org slot, you probably want to just cave, grab a token troops choice, and go from there for the low CP cost.

Before taking a patrol, ask - "Is this my main faction?", "Do I like my troops?" and "What all did I want to bring from this faction?"

If this is your main faction AND you don't like your troops, think about a patrol.

If this isn't your main faction AND you aren't taking 3 of a given force org slot, think about a patrol.

THE SUPERHEAVY DETACHMENT
Ah, here's where we get into some pain.  If you want to bring 3 superheavies and include the 'titanic' keyword, you're out 6CP.  Note that Knight codices have ways around this, but it's written into their rules.

My 3 Lords of Skulls are sad now.  Like, real sad.  Same goes for Imperial Guard Baneblade trios, Eldar wraithknight spam, etc.  (I don't think the latter was a thing, but I could be wrong.)  Any way you cut it, this is going to hurt unless you're knights.  Also you're probably only bringing along a patrol at best.

If you're knights, rejoice.

If you're anyone else, ask how painful starting with a max of 6 CP is going to be, and if it's going to be worth bringing 3 superheavies.

FLYER WING
Aaaand it's gone.

If you're bringing anyone with the 'Flyer' battlefield role, look at other org charts.

VANGUARD / SPEARHEAD/  OUTRIDER DETACHMENT
You bring an HQ, 3 of elite/fast attack/heavy support, and then 0-3 troops, and 0-2 of everything else.

In 8th, these were great ways to bulk up on slots (because you never can have enough guns) or splash another faction for cheap.

REVISED OPINION - You might build around these if you KNOW you're gonna take 3 of a given type of unit.  IE - "I really want 3 units of bikes as Ravenwing, and I don't want to bring any troops choices!"  Whether that's a good idea or not is another thing altogether.

Before taking one of these specialists, ask "Do I really want three of a unit type?"  If yes, take it.  If not, look at another one.


BRIGADE
Why?  You could do one in 8th, depending on your codex, but your options were limited - but you got some good CP for it.  Your competition was 2x battalion and change.

You needed to have good, cheap stuff available in most force org slots in order to make the math work and to have a GOOD brigade.  I think a lotta folks enjoyed trying to make cheap brigades just for the challenge of it.

I can't recall if we've seen a brigade get spoiled or not, but with the cost increases we've seen/heard about, I don't see a point in worrying about a brigade.

AUXILIARY SUPER-HEAVY DETACHMENT
You're taking this if you want just one super-heavy.  There's not a lot of debate here - build around that unit and go.  Just remember the old saying "One is none, two is one, three is some."

Moving Ahead
So, the way I see it now, you've got a couple options for 9th edition and it's going to depend on how you built your armies.

First, you can try to re-point what you've got.  If you ran multiple battalions, though, I don't think that's going to get you where you want to go - the part where we all start with 12 CP and pay for detachments beyond the first are going to make us re-think the number of detachments we want to take.

I would instead encourage everyone to take a good, long look at your troops slots.  Did you take a bunch of cheapo troops to fill out battalions for sweet, sweet CP? (I'm looking at you, cultists.)  Or, did you take some solid, reliable troops (I'm looking at you, Primaris fellas) that both filled troops slots AND carried weight?

If you liked your existing troops and you don't really NEED more than 2-3 HQs, it's probably going to be a battalion.  If you don't really like your troops, it's probably going to be a patrol and something else.

9th Edition Brainstorming - Alpha Legion Edition

I AM SNEAKY

Games Workshop has been kind enough to release the short version of the rules at this point.  I've taken a look at that and done some vaguely-informed speculating already.

At this point we're still missing a few details -
-Revised points costs
-Full details on missions
-Full details on core stratagems
-Full details on force org charts

I do think we have enough data on the force org charts to make some educated guesses - Battalion, Patrol, and the Lord of War detachments are enough for us.

There's actually some good news - at a glance, Alpha Legion at least has a decent toolbox of stratagems and the like that'll help us.

What do Core Rules Mean For Us?
1) Max of +1/-1 Modifiers - OH NOES(?)
I imagine that a lot of Alpha Legion folks (and probably some Raven Guard folks, and Aeldari, and probably some others) picked up on this pretty quick.  Does it hurt survivability of infantry at a basic level?  Eh, sometimes.  How often were you going to give more than one unit a -2 to hit?

It's not that hard to get units to -2 to hit or more between Dark Apostles and Miasma of Pestilence (for those who can take the Mark of Nurgle - IE the Possessed).  Or you could add relics and warlord traits - IE, Clandestine, or the Shade Blade.

My follow-on question - how many things does Alpha Legion actually try to use this combo on? 

We really kind of want the Mark of Slaanesh on our shooty stuff - who cares about defense when the target's dead.  Also, we can put our important guns behind other units and use Conceal to make sure the enemy has to shoot other stuff first.

Ok, so that leaves us with melee troopers - which is pretty much "Possessed" and "Demon Princes" - demon princes should be leveraging their character status for protection.

Note that Possessed still kind of like it because it works in melee, but Possessed may still benefit from having other Demons around for daemonic loci.  Slaaneshi demons come to mind with the whole 'advance and charge' thing.

2) Coherency and Screening Units - We Got Smaller
Cultist utility as screening units may take a hit based on the new coherency rules.  Don't expect your screens to be as large - a minimum-sized cultists squad covers less than half the space it used to.

This impacts anyone larger than 5 guys.  It means that most of our stuff cars about it, outside of Havocs and Obliterators.

If you're bringing 3 cultist squads to fill out a battalion (and I'm guessing we probably still will be) just know that they won't block off as much space. 

Note also that we have access to Scrambled Coordinates - so we can push folks back 12".  This'll help us with pushing anyone arriving from reserves back out of assault and rapid-fire range, which is what we generally care about.

3) Morale - At Least We Won't Have To Feed The Cultists
Morale got a few changes - you only lose one guy for sure when you fail morale.  Next up, though, is attrition - you roll 1d6 per model, and on a 1 they run away.  If you are under half-strength, that attrition roll takes a -1.  Morale gets a little less predictable, but it's not going to be hard to knock out low-leadership, low-save, low-toughness units.

I mean, we kind of knew this already.  Ld6 means there's always room for failure if anyone dies.

4) Command Phase
Getting 1 CP a turn is going to help - Chaos has plenty of awesome stratagems.  The only vague concern I have about the 'command phase' is that I suspect a lot of "beginning of turn" effects will get moved here.  Hopefully Dark Apostle prayers will remain "at the beginning of the round."

5) Force Org Chart Changes - Chaos has Friends, Really
Here's our mixed bag.  If you were playing pure Alpha Legion, the biggest difference is going to be in how many HQs you want to bring.  Double battalion was pretty normal for 2k, which meant 4 HQs and six troops. 

If you're skipping out on multiple Lords of War, you might as well go with a battalion - 2 HQs and 3 troops is reasonable.  You've got room for another HQ - and we have good ones.

If you're bringing in allies or mixing Chaos, the question's going to be 'what do you need?' because that's gonna cost CP.  Look at what units you need from either other Legions or the Demon Codex.

The thing that really hurts is the eye-watering 6CP to bring a Superheavy Detachment.  I've been mucking around with 3x Lords of Skulls (or 2x Lord of Skulls and a Kytan Ravager) and that's a giant kick to the CP.  Then again, that list was a bit more CP-efficient than others, since it mostly cared about popping the Daemonforge stratagem 1-2 times a turn and maybe re-rolling a psychic test. And possibly a charge.

Mixing Chaos knights with the chaos codex is a little more like 'mixing Chaos marines with Chaos Knights' - based on spoilers, the Renegade Knight book will have rules for taking a Superheavy Detachment without paying CP, provided the warlord is in said detachment.

Relics, Warlord Traits, and Stratagems
GW is tweaking points for 9th, so your lists are going to get smaller.  That being said, one of the things I like about Alpha Legion is that AL has a pretty solid tool kit at its disposal with respect to warlord traits, relics and stratagems.  Note that the Chaos Marine codex already has some solid ones - I'd say the stars of the show tend to be "Veterans of the Long War" and "Endless Cacophony."  If you've seen CSM on the table, you've seen them.

Hydra's Wail
Can everyone regenerate CP every turn?  Yes.  That's the biggest hit the Wail took.  You don't have to take any gear to get it.  However, to get the most out of it, you want to play it against an enemy that's going to plan on dropping 3-4 stratagems in a given turn - bonus points if they have defensive stratagems.

It won't bankrupt them on hot dice.  I'm a little sad, since this was one of my go-to relics. 

Clandestine & the Shade Blade
The perk of these items - a warlord trait and relic, respectively - was that they added a -1 to hit to you.  Well, that doesn't stack any more. 

I suppose if you want to give a Warlord trait to a Lord Discordant, or something else that's going to get into melee, then Clandestine has some use. 

I can't really say I'm a fan of the Shade Blade - S5 is nice, but the 1d3 damage is 'eh.'  If you're going up against multi-wound models, reliability matters. 

Viper's Bite + Headhunter
Killing characters is always great.  Screening changed a little with the whole "Look out, Sir!" rules - characters need to be next to something now - but this still ignores it in hilarious fashion.  Infantry screens are so-so, but being next to a vehicle means you gotta pop a tank to get it out.

Master of Diversion
This warlord trait is almost always going to be useful.  Being able to redeploy units is awesome.  Never underestimate it.  This is pretty much my go-to for its utility.  I'll probably take Viper's Bite + Headhunter on someone with a stratagem, as that guy's gonna draw fire after he splatters a VIP's brains.

Conceal
Since we can't get more than a -1 to hit vs. shooting anyway, the next best thing is "hahaha, you can't shoot me anyway."  2CP is a bit more affordable now that we start with 12CP and we get 1CP per turn back.

Scrambled Coordinates
GW's teased the part where just about anyone can pay CP now to come in off board edges from reserves.  There are a handful of units that pay extra to say "No, you come in more than 12 inches away instead of 9 inches."

Trust me, that 'more than 12' is important - it means you categorically are NOT assaulting the target, and odds are that you're not rapid-firing (generally speaking).  Sure, some stuff has a 24" shot, but you were never going to screen that anyway.

Ambush
As above - reserves are gonna be more common, so someone might as well catch bullets.  And since we have more CP, using this stratagem isn't so bad.

Devastation Battery / Punishing Volley
This is build-specific - you have to take Havocs or Obliterators and pay a CP for the detachment upgrade.  The reason you take this is because if you go second, you can use a stratagem to have Obliterators (or havocs, I guess) shoot something during your opponent's turn, and then you can use Conceal to make sure they live another turn.

I say 'Oblits' because if I'm not going second, I can leave them in reserve and drop them in later.

This is plenty affordable, especially with regenerating CP.  If you're turned off by the randomness of Obliterators, think about what they can do after someone moves into range. 

Soulforged Pack
This one's going to be a little harder to gauge.  If you are taking it on our smaller demon engines, it's not bad - you're out one CP.  If you are going to use it with Lords of Skulls - the question becomes "Do I really want to advance and charge?" because you're out 6CP for the LoS detachment, and the main reason you'd take Soulforged Pack is the "advance and charge" stratagem.

The Shape of Armies to Come
My gut says that pure Alpha Legion is probably going to build towards a Battalion at 2000 points.

I suspect that I'll start out with a sorcerer, a dark apostle (and friends), and 30 cultists still.

Sorcerers are probably going to stay just because of the utility of our psychic powers.  The Dark Apostle is too useful as a buff bot - prayers TBD.

Cultists are kind of a "we'll see."  Early leaks indicate that the point cost is up on the cultists.  They're taking a hit from morale and coherency rules.

Our troops choices are still going to be something like the following -
-10 cultists (cheap, takes up space)
-20-30 cultists (not cheap, takes up more space)
-5 marines (relative cost TBD, but has heavy weapon)
-10 marines (definitely not cheap, but has a couple heavy weapons and durability)

It's all going to be about what our guys cost, now.  I have ideas about allies, but I want to see what I'm out in terms of points and CP.

The other concept I want to play with is still 3 Lords of Skulls, but I've still got to build one.  Pretty sure I'll be taking a Patrol detachment with that.

9th Edition - Unit Coherency and Screening

By now I imagine most folks have noticed that the 9th edition rules are out.  At least, the short ones are - we haven't seen all the detachments yet, or the core stratagems.

I've already done a bit of thinking about the impacts of them - and if you're like me, you like not getting charged right off the bat.

This means you bring screens.  And if you like screens, you're definitely going to pay attention to the new unit coherency rules.  I figure that a visual demonstration is going to be worth a lot more than a few words.

The Old Rules

-horizontal coherencies is 2" between models

-vertical coherency is 6" between models

-if you are out of coherency, move into coherency next time.

The New Rules

-horizontal coherency is 2"

-vertical coherency is 5"

-if you are out of coherency, there's a coherency check during the morale phase - and those units just bail out. (But aren't casualties for Morale purposes

-Units with 6+ models treat coherency different - models must be in unit coherency w/ 2 models instead of one.

This last one is the biggest change for large units.  I think the easiest way to show it is visually.

A Brief Demonstration - Admittedly in a Vacuum

Our Stars

 I'll start with a typical unit employed for screening - a minimum-sized unit of cultists.  Everyone knows and loves them.  They're cheap.  They fill a troops slot if you need that.  Their main strength is that they take up space - if they're here, you can't deep strike close to them, and unless you kill them first, they might block an assault for a turn.

If anyone's asking, these are some of my cultists I use with my Alpha Legion - filed off the GSC logos.

If there are several squads of them, ignoring them means they might claim objectives or eventually chip away at something.

Screens in 8th

Putting the 'chain' in Daisy Chain

 Ten guys on 20mm bases two inches apart can spread out about 25-26".  No one arrives from reserves within 9" of them - so one unit can deny a heap of space.

9th Edition Coherency

More daisy, not so much chain

 This is a unit with more than 6 models, so they have to be in coherency with 2 models instead of one.  This gets a vote on how much we can spread out.  As you can see, it's not as much.  I'm not sure I could spread out a ton more - I might eke out a fraction here and there and make it exactly two inches, but that's about it.

As you can see, we're less than half as broad - we're 11" and change wide, and 4 inches deep.  The depth part is negotiable if you want to slap them on the front line - but that's about as wide as a 10-man unit gets.

How Do I get Back to that Sweet, Large Footprint?

Phone a friend time!

 So I grabbed another cheap screening unit - if you look closely, you'll notice that's a ten-pack of brimstone horrors.  For the sake of this experiment, it's deployed in coherency with the cultists as though it was one unit.

Initial Thoughts After Seeing Pictures

1) Screen Footprint Reduction - Ouch

Ok, so this one's obvious - especially from the pictures.  Your large screening units are not going to cover as much ground.  They're going to a little less than half of it.

2) 12" Denial Bubbles Are More Valuable

Some troops have an innate "no one comes in from reserves" bubble of 12" due to abilities.  Others can get it from stratagems.  As screening units get smaller footprints, anything that increases it becomes more valuable.

3) Screening Is Still Important

Lots of armies already have units that hop out of reserves - terminators and Crisis Suits fall out of deep strike.  Demons hop out of the warp.  Necrons hop out of...wherever they do.  The list goes on.  Also, note that you can pay CP to walk on a table edge in 9th.

Screens matter because screens push that out.  Melee units and short-ranged shooty units care about screens, but anyone with 24" guns is most likely to just laugh and shoot anyway because they've got range.

4) You'll still probably want to bring some screens

Obviously it's a bit early to make predictions about the meta for 9th - but considering that there's even more options for deployment shenanigans than before, I'll be surprised if we don't see mid-field infiltrators or a couple cheap backfield squads.

Next Steps

Obviously, we'll still need data on what point costs turn into.  Cheap screens are useful.  Multi-purpose screens are great too - if you can take up space and kill things, that's useful.  However, the big question is going to be "what do cheap units like Brimstone Horrors and Chaos Cultists cost?"

Because honestly, those guys exist to take up space.  You bring them to fill out a force org chart and to take up space - either on objectives or in front of something important.

A final bit of a laugh

So I've played the game off and on for a minute - I recall blast templates being a thing.  Ironically, now there are large units clustered together - what used to be spray and blast weapons are more effective against them - AND no one's gonna waste time arguing about who's under what stupid template.  GREAT SUCCESS.

9th Edition Cometh - Reckless Speculation Time

A wise man once said that opinions are like children - anyone can have them, but not everyone should.

Comedy
I will always be amused by people who run around screaming about how the sky is falling.  The game is changing.  That's what the game does.  If you started in 8th, I absolutely understand some nerves about an edition change since it's the first time it's happened.


What Do We Actually Know
We won't know the full extent of changes until you see actual rules.

That being said, some folks have done a fine job of collecting what GW has actually told us - and I'm definitely not going to do it myself.  Blood of Kittens has a nice compilation of it - might as well look at that.

Highlights
There's a LOT of stuff that's out there - so I'm going to pick out the stuff that jumps out at me as 'important' in terms of impact on gameplay.  Some of it's fairly obvious, but it's still worth laying out in one spot.

1) Command Point and Detachment Changes
Honestly, I think this is going to be one of the biggest changes for people, and it's also one we don't have all the information on yet. 

On the bright side, everyone starts on a level playing field with CP now.  This is kind of nice - there's not as much pressure to bring 2-3 battalions now for CP.  From the sound of it, we regenerate a CP a turn - though they haven't exactly explained how.

Now here's the other piece of the puzzle, and I don't have 100% of it at this time -
-Detachments cost CP
-If your Warlord is in a Detachment, that Detachment does not cost CP
-We know a Battalion detachment is 3 CP

Some armies don't care about mixing - loyalist Space Marines, for example, love their doctrines and so they'd be happy to bring a single detachment (Unless you're mixing chapters). 

Other armies, however, do very much care about multiple detachments - Chaos Demons, for example, love mono-god detachments (characters get Locus of [DEITY] abilities, like re-rolling charges) but an all Khorne army basically skips two phases of the game.  Chaos in general can play effectively together.

So my question, then, is - what are other detachments going to cost?  If I'm looking for like an Elite unit and an HQ, then maybe 1CP for a patrol unit isn't a bad deal on top of my 'free' Battalion my Warlord is in.

2) Mission Objective Changes
Apparently GW's taking a page from the ITC book here and going for varied mission objectives.  I'm kind of ok with this, provided that the mission objectives are balanced.  Having a variety that we can pick from based on the matchup makes sense to me.  Anyone who's played Maelstrom of War has invariably had a game or two decided based on craptastic objective draws.

3) Terrain Changes
I'm ok with this one as well - codify rules.  I expect to see aftermarket laser-cut tokens for terrain, or some sticky notes for this.

4) Point value Changes
They've said it's going to happen - so far they've given us point values for two units.  Also, GW said they're going to launch their own official army-building app, so I'm kind of ok with that. 

As for what impact it has - honestly, we need to see all of the above to have a guess.

5) Changes to Reserves and Arriving from it
There have been hints about changes to what you can do with reserves.  In 8th, you needed a neat rule to go into reserves and it governed how you arrived.  Apparently you'll be able to use CP to go into reserves now, and you may be able to walk onto a board edge now.  More to follow.

6) Hooray Vehicles!
Tanks get to move and shoot heavy weapons without a penalty? SWEEEEET! (Also I guess if you play 'nids or otherwise have shooty monstrous creatures, YAY).  Tanks get to shoot non-blast weapons into melee? SWEEET!  Blood is a paint job now! (Or it always was, if you were a Knight or Khorne disciple)

I'm actually kind of ok with this.  A LOT of vehicles are going to be a bit more useful now - or at least more mobile.  Taking -1 to hit when you moved (on top of a potentially degraded stat line) is a big 'meh.'  At least, a lot of vehicles are going to look more useful, and charging them to keep them tied up is going to be less attractive.

7) OMG OVERWATCH IS TEH NERFED!
Ok, look.  Let's be honest here - outside of the occasional HILARIOUS hot dice, how often did overwatch change the course of the game?  Did it happen with units that were already proficient with it, either by rules/stratagems or by weapons? (IE - Iron Hands w/ stratagems to hit on 4+, Tau, or folks w/ flamers?)

Honestly, I want to see who gets rules that help out overwatch in the new edition. 

Speculation
Having mocked people who believe the sky is falling, I'm going to try to keep my speculation on the more constructive side.

1) You're going to have to Re-Do Your Army Lists
This is kind of a given, what with the changes to detachments and point values.  I suspect the Brigade list is basically DOA for 2,000 points.  It wasn't impossible to build for in 8th, but it did provide a challenge - and a heap of CP.

2) You May NOT have to Re-Do Your Army Concepts
If you had already built a list that included screens, anti-infantry, anti-tank, and scoring units, you probably had a decent list.  The question is going to be how many detachments you need, and what you end up trimming.

Frankly, my plan is to sit down with my old lists next to a blank sheet and see if I can transcribe them.

3) You Will (Still) Definitely Want Screens
First off, I'm sure there are still folks out there who don't bring screening units.  These people confuse me.  You have clearly never experienced something like a Kytan Ravager charging something juicy from 48 inches away. (Technically possible with Warptime, a good advance roll, and Soulforged Pack).  Or you've never had Slaaneshi terminators double-tap something juicy, then charge something else (paying 1CP for a '6' on a charge dice and still having access to a re-roll? Yeah, if something's in charge range they're making it.)

There are plenty of things with long threat ranges, and now there are going to be even more ways to bring reserves into the field from new angles.  If you have bodies on the field, you limit the other side's ability to do this AND you make them choose between shooting something important, and shooting your screens.  Bonus points if your screens are something more threatening than Chaos Cultists or Brimstone Horrors.

4) Pre-Game CP spending Sprees May Get Attenuated
I think folks were happier to blow 3-5 CP before the game when they had 15-18 CP in 2,000 points.  That may still happen, but it may not be as much of a given.  Still, extra relics and warlord traits can be pretty useful, especially if any of those help refund CP.

5) Tying up vehicles in close combat is still going to be useful
On the one hand, I think we're all psyched that vehicles can shoot into melee.

On the other hand, there are a couple limits -
-heavy weapons aren't as accurate in close
-you can shoot at folks in engagement range
-you can nominate targets outside of engagement range
-you have to kill everyone in close if you want to fire at distant targets

So, you can't stop a vehicle from shooting by charging it, but you can still dictate its target priority.  You'll just have to make sure whatever you throw at the vehicle is tough enough to survive some shooting - you want to force the vehicle's commander to decide between trying to scrape you off with their guns, or falling back and committing another unit to taking care of the distraction.

6) Games Will Probably Be Smaller and Faster
If unit costs are changing (and look to be going up, if cultists going from 4 to 6 points is any indication) I suspect that armies are going to get a little smaller.

I'd say games will get faster, but that's only after we all get a firm grasp on the rules.

Conclusion
Obviously, this speculation is as good as the info we have - which is incomplete.  As with any speculation, there's a fair chance that we can look back and laugh.  It's probably healthy to do so.

That being said, I'm cautiously optimistic about 9th - I REALLY want to see the new detachment rules, because that's going to dictate how my Chaos lists change.

Alpha Legion Possessed - Testings Free Hugs, Further Thoughts - and Future

So, I managed get a game in and test out the Possessed as discussed previously.  I opted to bring the following -

The List

BATTALION 01
Sorcer w/ Jump Pack
-Mark of Nurgle
-Bolt Pistol/Force Staff
-Warp Time, Miasma of Pestilence

Demon Prince w/ Wings
-Pair of Claws, Warp Bolter
-Mark of Nurgle
-Smite, Diabolic Strength

18 Possessed w/ Mark of Nurgle

Greater Possessed - Mark of Nurgle

10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

BATTALION 02 - Pay CP for Devastation Battery detachment trait
Dark Apostle
-Prayer of -1 to Hit, Relic - Hydra's Wail
Warlord - Master of Diversion

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor
-Viper's Bite
-Chainfist
We Are Alpharius - Headhunter

8 Chaos Terminators
-Combi-plasma, Chainfist

16 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters

2 Dark Disciples

10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

3 Obliterators - Mark of Slaanesh

The Big Idea
The possessed module is pretty much there - Warptime is there to get upfield, the Dark Apostle and Miasma are there for buffs, and Diabolic strength + the Greater possessed gets you to S8, which is nice.

The Noise Marines are there to help with screen-clearing.  Odds are good they'll be close to someone that's giving them a re-roll on 1's, and in a pinch you can go Veterans of the Long War + Endless Cacophony for hilarious carnage.

The Obliterators are the reason I took Devastation Battery - a buddy of mine clued me into it - if I don't go first, then I make the enemy think about eating 18 shots from Oblits at the end of the movement phase.

If you haven't looked at it again - it's at the end of the movement phase.  If someone deep-strikes on turn one, you get to potentially hose down someone that walked out of a pod and pointed a gun at you.  Odds are good that something walked into range that you want to shoot.  Frankly, I think it's probably worth 2 CP.

The terminator blob is there because sometimes things need to die behind the lines, and sometimes you want to keep the other army honest.  Frankly, I think this is about as good as it gets for chaos terminators.  Combi-plasma kills things, and has the range to abuse Endless Cacophony even if the second volley isn't a double-tap.

With respect to melee, the chainfist is about as good as it gets.  You lose a little accuracy, but gain the ability to engage whatever you want.  I'll take reliable damage for a couple more points.  Your other melee options are there for killing infantry, and that's pretty much it.

Cultists....are screens.  Occasionally they contribute.

The Test
I went up against a buddy's Black Templar brigade, which basically deploys mid-field and plays a nasty objective game with a lot of guns and melee punch.  And with drop pods.  The short version is this -

THE OPPOSITION
Helbrecht
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack, Crusader's Helm
Lieutenant w/ Powerfist, Mastercraft Bolter, Witchseeker Bolts, WL Trait to Deny the Witch
Vanguard Vet Squad (Bunch of stormshields, several thunderhammers, lots of pain)
Relic-bearing Servitors (the three BT-specific elite guys)
Sternguard Vets
4 squads of Incursors
2 Squads of Scouts
Multi-melta bike
2 Squads of Suppressors
Grav-cannon Devastators
3 Squads of Eliminators (2 las-fusil, sniper rifle on sarge)
2 Drop Pods (Sternguard in 1, Devs, Servitors, Helbrecht, Lieutenant in the other)

As you can see, there were a LOT of guns out there.  The only thing of his that HAD to deploy in his DZ was the Bike.  If you don't push them off objectives early, you have a hell of an uphill fight on objectives, and PS - dislodging Primaris marines from objectives is ANNOYING.

We played the scenario with 3 objectives across the middle.  Mercifully, I went first.  We called it at the end of round five, as I was ahead on objectives and while I was down to cultists and HQs, he was basically off the board.

HIGHLIGHTS -
Possessed Warp-timed it up the field and got a charge into the Vanguard Vets.  I don't need  a bunch of 3++ jerks with thunder hammers running around my lines.  I multi-charged into an Incursor squad just to make sure that I could get into some kind of fight.  Ultimately this fight drug on through round three, ending with the Possessed dead, the Incursors dead, and most of the Vanguard dead.  The Demon Prince accounted for the rest.

The Greater Possessed ate a squad, then tried to stop a multi-melta with its face.  Its face was not multi-melta proof.  At all.

The Noise Marines used Conceal on turn one to mess up his target priority, and the cultists in front them ate a reasonable number of bullets.  Which is fair enough, considering what VotLW and Endless Cacophony does to...um, anything you point it at in cover.  These guys accounted for significant numbers of enemy snipers and Incursors, which is probably why they died.

The Obliterators had terrible luck with saves, and 2/3 of them died in the first round of shooting to Suppressors, because clearly the dice gods hate painted models.  The last one managed to do reasonably well.

The Terminators accounted for his drop pods - the grav devs and Sternguard had to die ASAP, and the Terminators got that job.  Then they managed to land a bunch of wounds on Helbrecht in assault - which he promptly saved.  And then they returned the favor.  They absorbed a LOT of shooting before ultimately dying.

The Terminator Lord got the honor of capping Helbrecht at short range.  Viper's Kiss is 100% worth taking on that config.  The Lord then also found out the Lieutenant doesn't come with an invuln save, which was a lot funnier to me than the Lieutenant.  AP-4 on a 3+ means "red mist," apparently.

The Demon Prince buffed the Possessed, then cleaned up a few squads of Incursors, and made more saves than it had any right to do so.

Cultists - well, half of them died terribly, and the other half helped hold objectives.  Most importantly, they managed to help push his drop pods

The Lessions, and Further Brainstorming
Possessed Buffs - Honestly, Possessed are a volume-of-attacks unit.  First impression on buffs is this - You reliably want to get Demonic Strength and Miasma of Pestilence off on them.  While it's tempting to put both on one psyker, snipers are real and that's a big target. (Plus seriously, sorcerers aren't THAT durable.).

A note on Marks - while Miasma of Pestilence is great for an additional -1 to hit, rumors about 9th edition currently suggest that we might see modifiers capped at -1.  On a more firm/practical note, switching to the Mark of Slaanesh would allow us to get Slaaneshi heralds in for an advance-and-run aura, another +1S, and we'd switch to Delightful Agonies for 5+ to ignore wounds.  The perk is we can use that on all our shooters in the army.

Food for thought.

Noise Marines are hilarious.  I think anyone who's run them knows that.  The only safe way to kill them is "shoot them when you have no infantry within 24 inches" otherwise you're gonna lose something.

Obliterators are a bit random, but getting them into cover makes it just that more annoying to shift them.  That being said, in this list the only other thing that MIGHT soak anti-tank fire is the terminators - so these guys are competing with Noise Marines for Conceal, and it's going to be a matter of "who do I need alive more?"  That being said, I like the versatility of them in this list.

The terminators stay.  The only real question I've got is - do I think about going for an Emperor's Children Battalion? The main reason to do so is to get access to the 'Honor the Prince' stratagem, which means for 1CP one of my charge dice is a '6.'  Considering 9th is around the corner and is going to change detachments, I'm not 100% onboard with this approach.

Next Steps
I'm definitely going to paint up a Possessed squad - a full 20 - and finish up a Demon Prince conversion.  The Terminators have kind of been on the to-do list for a while, but can wait for a minute.

I have painted soooo many cultists.  So very many.  But frankly, they're going to be relevant for some time.

Terminators vs. Obliterators - Part 2 - Obliterator Anaylsis

First, let's take a moment and be grateful that Obliterators got a resculpt.  I took a look at Terminators earlier, and decided this was going to be two posts because of the amount of math.

Obliterators, the short version - your gun is random (but not as bad as you think) - but a 24" gun is hard to hide from when it comes out of deep strike, and hard to retaliate against.

The Assumptions

I'm keeping my assumptions from last time.  They are -

1) Take the Mark of Slaanesh so we can shoot twice via Endless Cacophany

2) Assume Prescience (or some other to-hit buff; Obliterators don't blow themselves up with plasma so avoiding a '1' isn't as big a deal - but you'd be silly not to bring a buff)

3) Assume we have the CP for Veterans of the Long War because +1 to wound is great

4) Legion Trait - I'm going with Alpha Legion because I run that, but I'll discuss other legion traits as well.

Obliterators Part 1 - The Gun, at a glance

In a way, this is simpler than Terminators because there's only one gun.  

Fleshmetal Guns - Assault 6, S6+d3, AP -d3, Damage D3 at 24 inches.

The special rule that's going to make us all hate math in a minute is Fleshmetal guns - you drop a D3 when firing to figure out your final strength your AP, and your damage.

This means you could have S7, AP-1 shots that do one damage, OR you could get S9, AP-3, 3 damage shots, or anywhere in between.

It also means you're going to hold onto a CP to potentially re-roll one of these D3, depending on the target you're after.

On the bright side, a 24 inch range means it's much harder to screen targets - a 9" buffer zone is fine.  If you want to screen out a 24" range shot, you may be looking at specialists with a "no deployment within 12 inches rule" or multiple screens and/or breaking line of sight.  You also have the luxury of dropping in outside of easy charge range.  If someone does charge you, each Obliterator has three S6, AP-1, 1d3 damage swings - so you CAN punch something to death, but it's a mop-up operation instead of something to rely on.

A full unit of 3 Obliterators is 385 points - which is pretty close to terminators in the previous example.

Obliterators Part 2 - On Randomness

So here's where it gets interesting - the guns are random as all get-out.  Strength is 7-9, AP is -1 to -3, and damage is 1-3; you have no idea what you're getting until it happens.  I absolutely advocate shooting your Obliterators first so you can keep a command point available to re-roll any of the D3 - but note that you roll the dice one after the other, so you pick strength, AP, and then damage.  

Remember that on average, you'll get a '2' - so only re-roll for the max value if it really matters, because you can always drop to a '1' instead.

The D3 you're going to re-roll is going to depend on your target.  I would worry about strength and damage most of all; the AP can be frustrating but you need to wound your targets, and the multi-wound fellows (IE - Primaris Marines, for example) really really want you to roll a '2' on damage - when you need multi-wound infantry dead, doing 1 damage a wound just won't cut it unless the unit has already taken a beating.

Re-rolling strength depends on your target's toughness - so it matters on T4 (S8 is your break point), T7 and T8.  You'll always wound T3 on a 2+, and you'll always wound T6 on a 3+ before Veterans of the Long War (VoTLW).  In a pinch, VotLW can overcome this if you're firing against multi-wound infantry.

Re-rolling AP matters if you already got the strength you want, and you don't care about damage.

Re-rolling damage really depends on the target.  It doesn't matter if you're chewing up high-value single-wound targets, but once you get to heavy infantry and vehicles you REALLY want to make sure you're doing at least two damage.

My gut says that if anyone skips over Obliterators at this point, it's because doing the math hurts.

Obliterators Part 3 - The Math

The math is where things get real fun, and we break out the spreadsheets.  Assuming prescience goes off, we get 15 hits.  That's the last of the easy assumptions.

In order to actually provide something consumable and usable, I'm going to do math for the final outcomes - IE, what value do you need to wound a target, and what's the target's final save.  We can do to-wound math easily, and once we know the final save (be it an invulnerable save, or the save after AP, cover, etc.) we know the number of wounds that went through.  And if it's a single big target, we can then figure out the damage depending on our damage roll.

Obliterators when wounding on 2+

This category includes T3 infantry, OR T4 infantry with S8+, or Veterans of the Long War when you'd normally wound on a 3+

I'd say your biggest pie-in-the-sky number here is the 5+ save vs. wounding on a 2+ - that's your golden scenario vs. T8 superheavy that can pick up an invulnerable save.  

A more reasonable benchmark is the 2-damage output vs. a 4+ save - on average you should still clean out two-wound primaris marines, and VotLW means you should be able to delete dreadnoughts, etc.

Obliterators when wounding on a 3+

This bin includes T4 infantry when you roll S7, T5-6 targets all the time, T7 targets when you're S8 and T8 targets when you're S9.

Assuming you can swing average AP and damage rolls with this, you can still put some solid damage (average 13.3) on something like a Knight, and still probably take out a tank.

Assuming you get two damage and so-so AP, even S7 means you can still probably nuke most or all of a two-wound T4 infantry squad unless they're in hard cover.

Obliterators wounding a on 4+

This category is slimmer - it's T7, 8, and 9 targets when you roll strength equal to their toughness.

Frankly, this table is a little disappointing - you need good AP to do decent damage to heavy targets.  

age

Obliterators wounding on 5+

You should have used VotLW, or re-rolled strength if you have to hit a target that you wound on a 5+.  You get 3 wounds off that, which isn't going to do a blessed thing.

What Do These Numbers Mean?

Ok, let's be real - that's a large wall of math and text to get through.  

Obliterator Perks

-24" range on the gun means you can stay out of counter-charge range, if applicable, to do your damage.

-24" gun range means that the only safe place is out of line of sight

-Obliterators are durable - T5, four wounds, and a 2+/5++ mean that they can soak a LOT of bullets.

-Unlike terminators, you don't run the risk of blowing yourself up.

-From a tabletop perspective, you can actually batch roll faster because a '1' doesn't kill your model.

-Randomness of the gun means you might kick out a half-dozen S9 AP-3 three-damage shots per guy, which is HILARIOUSLY nasty

-You don't need a huge footprint to drop in on with three models, even if you do have heftier bases.

Obliterator Drawbacks

-Randomness on the gun is the major flaw here, and you have to think about whether or not it matters.  Against line infantry, it's not a big deal - but you're kind of wasting yourself if you do that. 

-The AP of the gun is (to me) the biggest drawback - low AP vs. hard targets (most vehicles have a 3+ save) can hamper you, and it's the roll you're least likely to end up wanting to influence.

-The strength of the gun may matter, depending on the target.

-The damage is where it can get you - rolling a '1' for damage against heavy duty targets is just wildly disappointing.

A Note on Legion Traits

Alpha Legion - your 24" range lets you drop in far enough away to benefit from the -1 to hit.  If someone does charge you, you can drop 1CP for Feigned Retreat, walk away, and shoot again.  You probably have the range to use Conceal as well, which means no one is shooting these guys unless they're the closest target.

Black Legion - the trait is irrelevant.  You have a couple of stratagems to get re-rolls without nearby support, such as Let the Galaxy Burn - or Tip of the Spear if you ARE somehow the closest to the enemy.

World Eaters - you lose out on Prescience and Endless Cacophony.  Skip unless you're die hard pure World Eaters.

Word Bearers - you don't really care about the trait.  Malevolent Covenant can let you auto-pass the psychic test  for Prescience and won't let someone use Deny the Witch on it.

Night Lords - you definitely aren't close enough to use the trait yourself.  You can get -1 to hit vs. enemy shooting for 1CP via In Midnight Clad.  Leadership 8 may make you a candidate for Prey on the Weak - getting +1 to hit is never bad.

Iron Warriors - you're (potentially) light on AP, so ignoring cover is helpful if you're going after infantry or the odd vehicle that can get cover.  The Tank Hunter stratagem is good for rerolls vs vehicles.

Emperor's Children - Your legion trait doesn't really do anything.  I suppose you could use Combat Elixirs to go up to T6, but that seems excessive.

Renegades - There really isn't a huge perk for the initial volley here.

In Closing

The Obliterator gun is hilariously (and obnoxiously) random - however, it's still capable of dishing out some solid pain.  The benefit is that the 24" range means that it's difficult to hide from unless you're out of line of sight, and it's on a pretty durable platform.