More on Iron Hands and 9th - Post 7 Jan Points Tweaks

 

I've had some time to play around with the sons of Ferrus Manus and test some of my initial impressions.  We've also had a points adjustment since then, and a forge world index drop.

The question, then, is what do we do better than other marines, and what's worth building around?  Also, are there things that just look neat, but are somehow not quite as cool for us as others?  And, finally, do we have some hilarious tricks or things?

The Iron Father

Post 7 Jan FAQ, he's 160 points.  That's a significant increase over a regular techmarine, and really, you're paying for his 5++ invuln save bubble.  Unless you're going to push a bunch of Intercessors up the table, I don't think he's really worth it.  Yes, he gives +1 to hit out more freely, but seriously, you've got re-rolls for CORE stuff already.

MOVING OUT - Build around him, or leave at home.

The Relic Character Contemptor of Dakka

Would you like to bury a bunch of heavy weapons on a character that really does NOT care about snipers?  For a little over 200 points and 2-3 CP, you can bring the sniper dreadnought from hell.  Take a Relic Contemptor, drop a pair of twin-las on it, and buy a Cyclone missile launcher for good measure.  Pay a second CP (you already paid one for Martial Legacy) for March of the Ancients, and since he's 9W, he just needs to hang back for Look Out, Sir.  If you REALLY want to have fun, give him the Warlord Trait 'targeting protocols' - he can hand out a re-roll to hit, a re-roll to wound, and a re-roll to damage.

He's not CORE, but you might have a techmarine nearby for a +1 to hit, or you might just buff yourself.  You're kicking out six shots that are probably wounding on a 3-4 and then doing 1d6 damage per shot.  It's a chunk of points, but unless you throw him out too far forward or just get your screens nuked, this guy is bound to have a few turns of ugly, ugly shooting.

MOVING OUT - not for smaller point games, but it's a bloody productive model.

Grav Devastators in Drop Pods

Seriously, the ability to drop in and drop a bucket of accurate dice is solid.  24" is "you have to hide out of LOS, you aren't screening this out" range.  If this unit lives, you can pay a CP and promptly go back into the devastator doctrine.

I suppose you could lean into drop-pod multi-melta if you wanted to, but that seems like overkill and you have other ways to deliver that capability (like, say, Eradicators and possibly strategic reserves).

I suppose you could also use traditional long-range devastators and leverage the "revert to devastator doctrine" stratagem as well, but grav is tasty and demands a response.

MOVING OUT - it's just shy of 200pts and a heavy support slot, and it's not hard to fit into a build.

On Dreadnoughts

Real talk here - I think it's safe to say we do the Redemptor very well; a 6+ shrug on wounds and no stat degradation until we're on 3 wounds remaining?  Come on.  They're  big, they hit hard, and I'm having a hard time not putting 1-2 in my list before looking elsewhere.  They're even more fun when you get a Librarian with Psychic Fortress Up, because now you've got a tasty 5++ save.

Venerable dreadnoughts are in a different spot - 2+ to hit is pretty awesome, but the 6+ shrug they come with is redundant, and they don't degrade.  We lose a touch of efficiency here, but a venerable dread is still a bargain-bin pick for March of the Ancients and guns.

The other dreadnoughts skip out on our ability to basically ignore degrading stats, but they're good with the 6+ FNP.   The core advantage they have is weapons choices - and really, the only standouts are the twin lascannon and the multi-melta.  You trade out a LOT of volume for these - a dozen S6 shots and another 8 at S5, then your small arms fire and possibly that Icarus pod (because at 5pts, why not.)

The Ironclad is worth mentioning because T8 is significant - small arms and most melee shifts to 6+ to wound, and most heavy weapons are on 4+ to wound now.

MOVING OUT - Redemptors are awesome.  It's hard to say not to them because we make them shine.  The biggest competitor is the relic contemptor sniper build mentioned above.

On the Apothecary

So, these guys got a nice buff.  The thing is, we already have half of what an apothecary offers - a 6+ shrug.  So, we bring one to resurrect guys.  A Chief Apothecary is around 100pts and a warlord trait (probably means he's your warlord, and you're spending a CP to buff someone else, or he's getting his trait for a CP).  If you didn't bring a beefy unit of special characters, skip this guy - you want to bring back something like Terminators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Veterans, Eradicators or something else tasty.

If you're bringing him to bring back intercessors, think about what you'd get out of 5 more intercessors on the field right away.

MOVING OUT - Much as I like this model, Iron Hands really want more of a plan for it since the 6+ shrug aura is redundant.

Warlord Traits / Relics of Note

Don't neglect Student of History - it's not really killy by itself, but Paragon of Iron for a more killy trait (like Sword of the Imperium) along with this lets your Warlord back out of combat on your opponents turn, letting you shoot things and then charge or relocate.

Sword the Imperium + Axe of Medusa = bargain thunder hammer on the charge; you get an S8, AP-3 3 damage power axe that hits on 2s.

If you really want to try to make a Repulsor Executioner work (or some other weird, large FW tank) consider a Techmarine with the Iron Stone and Targeting Protocols; -1 damage from your relic, +1BS and a re-roll to hit, wound, and damage is tasty.  It's also a lot of eggs in one basket.

Aegis Ferrum + The Flesh is Weak-- if you really, really, REALLY have to be tanky, you can stack +1W, -1 damage, and a 5+ shrug (that goes to 4+ via stratagem) on a model.  This gets kinda dumb on bike characters (T6, W7 biker captain, T6, W8 biker primaris chaplain) and the captain in gravis armor (T6, W8).  Make sure your character can already do damage with his existing weapons, though.  (Hammer/shield bike, Gravis say "HI!" and then promptly want to beat the hell out of you.)

On Flyers

Look, even though we have a 6+ shrug, I really can't bring myself to recommend more than 0-2 flyers in a list at any given moment.  Marine flyers are a touch flimsy - best-case scenario is they fly across the board, dump bullets into a hard-to-see target, and then get dead.

MOVING OUT - I'll bring them occasionally for fun, but anyone with guns is going to spike them as hard as they can, just because you can take out a lot of firepower for the wounds.  170-220pts for 10W on a T6-T7 chassis that's in short-to-medium range just isn't that hot, even with a -1 to hit.

Iron Hands - First Impressions in 9th

 

No one saw this coming, right?

I've taken a minute to pivot from Necrons to my good ol' Iron Hands.  The Space Marine book is a bit of a rebalance, and the rebalance will continue once we get the Forge World index.  This is me looking at Iron Hands in particular, rather than taking a holistic look at the Marine book.  I played these guys before Primaris marines were a thing. /olddreadrant

What Do Iron Hands Do That Other Marines Don't?

Chapter Tactics - Durability

Our chapter tactics have two parts - a flat 6+ shrug vs. damage, and our vehicles double their remaining wounds.

The 6+ shrug is not the most reliable thing in the world, but it's always going to be a factor in a game.  You will always take damage.  There's also the faint chance that a good 6+ vs. a two-damage weapon will let one marine soak two of these instead of one.  It's more funny than anything else, but it happens.  It also means our vehicles are likely to absorb a little more abuse.

Now, that "double remaining wounds" thing is something to build around.  This means that most vehicles need to get shot down to ~2 wounds before they're degraded, or one wound to be on the last profile.  Multi-wound vehicles really benefit from this, and the marine book definitely has some worth considering.

This also means you're probably going to watch folks play 'Bring it Down' if you use our chapter tactics to the fullest, but whatever - hose the dreadnought out, chuck another body in and go.

The Iron Father with Infantry

We still have our special character from the supplement - Iron Father Fierros.  He's a beefy named tech marine that throws out a 5++ bubble for infantry, has a +1 to hit buff, and can put 3 wounds back on a vehicle.  He's also no slouch in melee.  However, at 140pts, he's something you have to build around.

He's a little less attractive now that the chief apothecary doesn't hand out a 5+++ bubble, but Iron Father + chief apothecary + beefy infantry is a starting point.  Getting a bunch of beefy bodies on objectives and staying on them is a strategy.  I feel like you really want to run a bunch of 5-man units around this guy to make sure you live through shooting, but also don't make nasty anti-tank blast weapons more efficient.

One Nasty (if expensive) Overwatch

We still have a stratagem to hit on overwatch at 4+.  Granted, you're spending 2CP to do it, so it's definitely a "well, maybe" instead of a "LOL EAT IT!" move.  Honestly you either need to be shooting a LOT to make it worthwhile (IE - be a Redemptor with all the guns) or shoot at something that might get killed.

Devastator Doctrine Buff

Our Devastator doctrine lets you move and shoot heavy weapons - and if you don't move, you re-roll ones.  Note that we have a 1CP stratagem to let someone go back into the devastator doctrine.  This comes into play for, appropriately enough, Devastator marines - drop pod devastators (probably with, y'know, multi-meltas) hit on 3+ on turn one.  Foot devastators can either grab a great position and get re-rolls without a captain, or deploy conservatively and then reposition as necessary.

Note also that you can always roll back the doctrine for extra AP (for high rate-of-fire weapons) or to get re-rolls on stationary units.

Anti-Sniper Tech

Cogitated Martyrdom means that if your character is near infantry, they can hand off sniper hits.  Snipers are ugly, and even though marines are beefy, well - bounce enough rounds off their heads and they die.  Librarians and lieutenants in particular care because they generally don't have an invulnerable save.

Character Dreadnought Stratagem

You can only use it once, but one dread can be a character.  Anyone other than a Redemptor is 9 wounds or less, which means that you can use Look Out, Sir.   This has the obvious effect of making a dreadnought not die to shooting ASAP - most sniping weapons are meant for people, not walking coffins full of guns and rage.  You can hide some nice guns this way.

Another perk here is that dreadnoughts have Wisdom of the Ancients - for 1CP, they're a Captain or a Lieutenant for a turn.  You can either bring more detachments for more HQ slots, or bring a non-Redemptor dreadnought and let it pretend to be a Captain or Lieutenant as needed.  There are build options here.

Units of Note

The Redemptor

This guy got buffed in the new book, and Iron Hands are absolutely on board with it.  T7, 13 Wounds (and you don't notice any issues until you're on 3 wounds), an innate -1 damage thanks to Duty Eternal, a reasonable speed, and a lot of guns WITH a fist of 3+1d3 damage?  Yes please.

I'd default to paying 185 for the heavy onslaught gatling cannon and Icarus pod - then I'd trade the heavy flamer for an onslaught gatling cannon.  The storm bolters and fragstorm grenade launchers are close enough in performance as to be dealer's choice.  The Icarus pod is cheap enough at 5pts that I'll take basically 1d3 autocannon shots.  This loadout farts out a healthy 20 shots that wound most infantry on 3's, and in a pinch can chew up vehicles before you try to punch it to death.  Also, enjoy the look on someone's face when they charge this thing and you pay 2CP to crank out like ~30 dice that hit on a 4+.

I have drooled over the plasma incenerator, mind you - I think if you're taking 3 dreadnoughts, you might as well take one.  S8-9, 2-3 damage, and AP-4 (depending on whether you overcharge or not) is hard to argue with - the only letdown is the random number of shots.  You trade out reliability for a little more range, and the ability to ruin the day of heavy infantry.

As far as support goes, Psychic Fortress isn't a bad pick - getting a 5++ on a dread or two can be clutch, as a 3+ armor save won't stop las, melta, or their xenos equivalents, and that's what the dreads fear.  A flat -1 damage is great versus weapons with 2 damage and a good rate of fire, but once you start doing 3+ damage at a time, well, the Redemptor starts noticing.  A 5++ is at least a chance to avoid some of that pain.

The dreadnoughts could also use some melee support - the fist HURTS when it hits, but at 5 swings on WS3+, it's definitely a quality over quantity thing.  Hopefully you thinned out the horde with all those guns.

The Invictor

Do you like distracting people?  Drop two invictors in the midfield, make the enemy kill them.  I lean towards the flamer just for the hell of it, though the autocannon does give you versatility in the event that deploying forward is dumb.

You WILL lose these guys in basically every game, mind you.  That's not the point.  The point is that they'll generally mess up the enemy plans, because no one can afford to have these things running around the midfield or backfield.

Most of what I said about the Redemptor applies here, but you trade durability for forward deployment.  These guys are only T6, and don't have Duty Eternal for the sweet -1 damage.  Consider infiltrators as an option as well.

The Razorback

It's not as scary as a redemptor, but transports do a few things for you - they protect troops, and if you're on an objective, a popped transport just farts out ObSec bodies on that objective.  Razorbacks get a mention here because the chapter trait means they'll put out accurate firepower until they're almost dead.

Remember also that 5 dudes in a razorback can take a combi-weapon, a special weapon, and a melee weapon.  Think about the job for the loadout - if you want a backfield camper, think about twin-las, then maybe a flamer, combi-flamer, and chainsword.  If you're moving up, I think you look into the assault cannon for the razorback and then consider plasma/combi-plasma/chainsword.

If you're bringing Razorbacks, make sure you're also bringing other armor - Razorbacks aren't super-easy to kill, but they're not super-hard to kill, either.

Devastator Squads

These guys have two big roles for Iron Hands.  The no-brainer is four dudes with multi-meltas in a drop pod - given a signum and cherub, that's like 9 multi-melta hits on a target.  They might get to weep before exploding.

The second is that dev squads have flexibility on the field - hide them in round one, or enjoy re-rolls if your enemy can't melt them on the first turn.  Remember also that for one CP, you can get re-roll 1s as well.  For the backfield squad, I'm torn between missile launchers and lascannons.  Missile launchers trade one strength and 2 AP for versatility.  Blast weapons say 'hello' to infantry - 12-24 shots from 48" away are a thing.

The other devastator options don't really call to me.  Heavy bolters and grav cannons w/ amps aren't bad, per se, but we can get volume of fire elsewhere.  I really want to like plasma cannons, but you really, REALLY want to re-roll 1s on guys that might blow themselves up.  If I really want plasma with a side of self-immolation, I might as well look at the Inceptors with plasma exterminators.

March of the Ancients + non-Redemptor

As mentioned above, you can hide a dreadnought.  If you opted to focus away from armor, or just want to hide a dreadnought, you've got options.  First off, I'd consider what you wanted to achieve from this - did you want to hide heavy weapons?  Did you want to bring a versatile, reliable buff bot?  Did you only want to bring one dread?  Also, you can always drop a warlord trait on these guys.

Venerable Dreadnoughts hit on a 2+ - if you want long-range fire, a lascannon and whatever else is a reasonable pick.  It'll run you around 145, but it's pretty solid.  I'd rather pay for the 2+ WS/BS than go with a regular dreadnought's 3+, if I'm going to invest CP.

Ironclad Dreadnought - Realistically you brought this as a hidden counterassault.  You get T8, and you lose out on shooting.  Sure, you can take a hurricane bolter, but Dreadnoughts don't get bolter discipline.  It'll also run you 135-145, depending on weapon options.  I think this is more lulzy than anything else.

Contemptor Dreadnought - this guy has fewer options, but has two big things that recommend him over other dreads - an 8" move (vs 6") and an innate 5++ save.  You also have 9W instead of 8, which is neat.  You're a flat 150, and can choose between an S7 assault cannon or multi-melta.  Honestly, I think this is the best of both worlds - you have a hidden heavy weapon, you have speed, you have durability, and you can still punch pretty well.

Librarian with Psychic Fortress

Ok, anyone can take these - but these guys can probably get a 5++ on some of your vehicles.  That's why you want to look at taking these guys.  Play up that durability.

Chief Apothecary

Durability's a theme here - pay the points to upgrade to the guy who can revive units for free.  Do it two turns, and you've turned a profit.  This also dictates target priority for the enemy, as one living Eradicator or Terminator suddenly becomes two - and characters start healing 3 wounds in combat.  For more fun, heal characters that have your 5+++ warlord trait.

Iron Hands, Post FAQ

So, let's go ahead and be real - marines kind of needed the Devastator Doctrine reeled in a little bit.  Maybe more than a little bit.  So, there are two things for folks to do -

1) Party! Especially if you're not a marine player.

2) Consider changes to your list, if you are a marine player.

I've always had a soft spot for the Iron Hands, and I've painted too many of them to want to sell anyway.  So, time to actually figure out what's next -

Question 1 - What's the Nerf?

Question 2 - How does this change the army?

Question 3-  What Can I Do To Mitigate it?

First up, the nerf itself - you're devastator doctrine turn 01.  You change over to tactical doctrine on turn two, and you have the option to stay in tactical doctrine OR advance to the assault doctrine in turn 3.  You are absolutely in the assault doctrine by turn 4, though.  Marines also lost the stratagem to change the doctrine for their army, which only makes sense.

For Iron Hands, our bonus is two-fold - "move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty" and "re-roll ones if you stood still." 

How does this change the army?

So, units that stood still and had heavy weapons basically didn't need captains, since you already had it.  Additionally, remember that the first 1-2 points of AP are where you really make your money - the first point of AP essentially negates cover (if applicable) or really helps, and the second point of AP starts making high-rate-of-fire heavy weapons (IE - Thunderfire cannons, storm cannon arrays) much nastier.

You also had vehicles and/or dreadnoughts basically wandering around not caring about the number of heavy weapons they carried - move-and-shoot heavy weapons along with the fact that Iron Hand vehicles are basically full strength until at ~3 wounds is fun. (Well, unless you're the person that left them on four wounds, at which point you basically did nothing).

So, your heavy weapons aren't as mobile, and your stationary heavy weapons aren't as accurate.  At a glance, here are some losers, in no particular order -

The pain, the pain!

Thunderfire Cannon - loses out on some accuracy, but BS2+ is still solid.

Dreadnoughts - outside of lascannons and missile launchers, most dreads need to move up to fire, so they lose mobility.  Also the Leviathan dread in particular notices it, since AP-2 makes a big difference to vehicles.

Tanks without Power of the Machine Spirit - you lose out on some mobility, or at least you're back in the land of trading your move for -1 to your shots with your big guns.  Looking at predators, razorbacks here, for example.

Flyers - You generally a lot of heavy weapons (if not exclusively heavy weapons), and generally have to move.  Or, if applicable, you can hover and hope that no one takes the opportunity to tear you out of the sky.  T7 doesn't like massed small arms fire.

Turn 2+ Deep Strikers w/ heavy weapons - drop devs and terminators notice it, but outside of grav cannons I'm not really sure what I'd want in a drop pod anyway.

Stalker Bolt Rifles - if you've got squads in the backfield holding objectives, they don't care.  But if they move, it's a -1 to hit on a squad without a lot of shots.

Attack Bikes - you have good turn 1 mobility - not so much after that, at least not without losing accuracy on the guns.  The heavy bolter bike doesn't care as much, but the multi-melta bike does.

Land Speeders - Eh, honestly, you were probably just hiding them the first turn and then moving into firing position.  I'd feel this more if I wanted to try landspeeders more.

Devastators - They'll want a babysitter after turn 1 if you want re-rolls, and I feel like plasma cannons had a brief moment to be cool before this.  Or at least not blow up as often.

Eliminators - let's be real, they were probably going to camp in cover the whole game and re-roll hits.  Now they're just going to be in cover.

How do I mitigate this with stratagems?

There are a couple stratagems you want to be aware of when it comes to losing your dev doctrine.

Methodical Firepower - one unit's back in devastator doctrine.  Pretty self-explanatory.

Big Guns Never Tire - one vehicle does not take the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.  It's not additional AP, but if you have a lot of heavy weapons, well, it's worth it. (Hello, Stormhawk Interceptor...)

Wisdom of the Ancients - if you brought dreadnoughts, and your captain (if applicable) is elsewhere, it's a re-roll aura.

How do I mitigate this with particular units?

There are also a couple of units worth mentioning that boost ballistic skill - 

Iron Father Feirros - BS2+ on a normally BS3+ model is basically the same as not taking the -1 to hit penalty.

Chaplains with Recitation of Focus - hey, it's +1 to hit, kinda like your iron father, and it's another application of it.  Remember, Chaplain Dreadnoughts are real.

What does this mean for my list?

So, you get dev doctrine for a turn, and then you're down to one unit a turn getting it, and potentially one vehicle moving and shooting without taking a penalty.  On the flip side, rapid fire weapons are going to enjoy bonus AP for a couple of turns - I wouldn't build around that as much as I'd be aware of the fact that my stalker bolt rifles and infantry-borne heavy weapons are losing mobility.

Here's a before-and-after of my IH Flyer list, and what it meant to me.  I'm not claiming this list was perfect or anything, either.  It's just an example -

BEFORE THE PAAAIN!

Iron Hand Battalion -

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought (twin-las, dreadnought CCW, storm bolter)

Phobos Librarian (auto-medicae bionics, tenebrous curse, mind raid)

Invictor Warsuit (autocannon)

Invictor Warsuit (autocannon)

5 Infiltrators

5 Infiltrators

~7 Primaris marines (stalker bolt rifles, power sword on sarge)

3 Eliminators (3 bolt sniper rifles)

3 Eliminators (3 bolt sniper rifles)

3 Eliminators (3 bolt sniper rifles)

Iron Hand Spearhead

Primaris Lieutenant (power sword, pistol)

Thunderfire cannon

Thunderfire cannon

Thunderfire cannon

Flyer Wing

Stormhawk Interceptor (las-talon, 2 assault cannon, 2 heavy bolter)

Stormhawk Interceptor (las-talon, 2 assault cannon, 2 heavy bolter)

Stormhawk Interceptor (las-talon, 2 assault cannon, 2 heavy bolter)

The idea is that the invictors and infiltrators hold midfield objectives, and the flyers roll up to wreak havoc.  Thunderfire cannon + Phobos Librarian can screw with the movement of up to three units.  Lieutenant babysits the cannons.  Flyers, well - it's a lotta guns, and you pretty much have to kill them to make them stop.  CP generally went towards double-tapping the thunderfire cannons.

AFTER THE PAIN

Iron Hand Battalion -

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought (twin-las, dreadnought CCW, storm bolter)

Phobos Librarian (auto-medicae bionics, tenebrous curse, mind raid)

Invictor Warsuit (flamer)

Invictor Warsuit (flamer)

5 Infiltrators

5 Infiltrators

~8 Primaris marines (stalker bolt rifles, power sword on sarge)

3 Eliminators (3 bolt sniper rifles)

3 Eliminators (3 bolt sniper rifles)

3 Eliminators (3 bolt sniper rifles)

Iron Hand Spearhead

Primaris Lieutenant (power sword, pistol)

Thunderfire cannon

Thunderfire cannon

Thunderfire cannon

Flyer Wing

Stormhawk Interceptor (las-talon, 2 assault cannon, 2 heavy bolter)

Stormhawk Interceptor (las-talon, 2 assault cannon, 2 heavy bolter)

Stormhawk Interceptor (las-talon, 2 assault cannon, 2 heavy bolter)

Not much changed, did it?  Here's my logic -

Flyers - two of them will be accurate on turn two, one way or the other.  If I still have all three on turn two, I'm in great shape and probably winning.  The one that has to hit harder targets (or chew on a vehicle) gets the devastator doctrine, the other just gets to shoot at BS.

The Invictors dropped autocannons for flamers for two reasons.  First, these things need to be disrupting the enemy by getting in their face, so while the autocannon's 48" range is awesome, I'm not going to get a lot of mileage out of that range after the second turn, and if I don't have flyers to use my stratagems on, well, I'm probably in a world of pain anyway.  Or the invictors are punching something to death.

I don't mind having stalker rifles on the move with Recitation of Focus nearby, so they can stay.

Eliminators and Thunderfire cannons are just going to be a little less accurate, and that is what it is.

In Conclusion

In general, we got less accurate with some of the big guns.  Very few things (like plasma cannons) took a major hit, and we have ways to mitigate the hit to accuracy.  If you built around a lot of vehicles (like, a LOT, like razorback spam + land speeders or something) that move, you're definitely going to feel it.